# Expanded NATO symbol options **URL:** \ **Category:** Feature Requests\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449 "2009-01-09T02:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/21 "2009-01-09T22:54:01Z")
Thus spake “Brent Easton”: > [@](#): > > The reason for this is to guarantee that what the designer designs appears EX > ACTLY on ALL target systems. Can you guarantee that an SVG image will rasteri > ze identically on all target systems. Yes, so long as we have a mechanism for embedding fonts. – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/22 "2009-01-10T02:03:52Z")
If you use the same font, the results will be identical (e.g., in acrobat reader). The differences you see are the result of font substitutions which you often see in OpenOffice on Linux because Linux rarely has proprietary fonts. Helvetica will often be substituted with Arial; Times will often be replaced by Times New Roman – or they’ll get replaced by even freer fonts like the Nimbus series. But the same font will always produce the same results. So if a font is included with a module, it will look the same. However, it occurs to me that straight SVG may be better than using fonts for NATO symbols. The reason is that fonts don’t scale asymmetrically very well and users may not want the default proportions. The question I have is regarding SVG rendering in Java: does it align vertical and horizontal lines on pixel columns or rows, respectively? For example, PostScript does do that. Also, if you scale SVGs, can you scale stroke width independently? I’m leaning toward basic SVG. - M. 2009/1/9 Joel Uckelman \<[uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net) ([uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net))\> > [@](#): > > Thus spake “Brent Easton”: > > > [@](#): > > > > The reason for this is to guarantee that what the designer designs appears EX > > ACTLY on ALL target systems. Can you guarantee that an SVG image will rasteri > > ze identically on all target systems. > > Yes, so long as we have a mechanism for embedding fonts. > > – > > J. Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/23 "2009-01-10T10:30:00Z")
Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > [@](#): > > However, it occurs to me that straight SVG may be better than using fonts > for NATO symbols. The reason is that fonts don’t scale asymmetrically very > well and users may not want the default proportions. The question I have is > regarding SVG rendering in Java: does it align vertical and horizontal lines > on pixel columns or rows, respectively? For example, PostScript does do > that. Also, if you scale SVGs, can you scale stroke width independently? The SVG standard supports supports aligning vertical and horizontal lines with the pixel grid via the “crispEdges” value of the shape-rendering attribute. I’m not sure about independent scaling for stroke width—Inkscape supports that, e.g., but I’m not sure about whether there’s language support for it. (I think doing that would look bad for most tokens.) – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:31am UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/24 "2009-01-10T11:31:26Z")
You wouldn’t want vertical & horizontal line widths to scale differently. - M. On 10/01/2009, Joel Uckelman [uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net) wrote: > [@](#): > > Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > > > [@](#): > > > > However, it occurs to me that straight SVG may be better than using fonts > > for NATO symbols. The reason is that fonts don’t scale asymmetrically > > very > > well and users may not want the default proportions. The question I have > > is > > regarding SVG rendering in Java: does it align vertical and horizontal > > lines > > on pixel columns or rows, respectively? For example, PostScript does do > > that. Also, if you scale SVGs, can you scale stroke width independently? > > The SVG standard supports supports aligning vertical and horizontal lines > with the pixel grid via the “crispEdges” value of the shape-rendering > attribute. I’m not sure about independent scaling for stroke > width—Inkscape > supports that, e.g., but I’m not sure about whether there’s language support > for it. (I think doing that would look bad for most tokens.) > > – > J. > > * * * > > Messages mailing list > [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) > [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) – Michael Kiefte, Ph.D. Associate Professor School of Human Communication Disorders Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada tel: +1 902 494 5150 fax: +1 902 494 5151 * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:45am UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/25 "2009-01-10T11:45:32Z")
Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > [@](#): > > You wouldn’t want vertical & horizontal line widths to scale differently. Huh? I don’t follow. I thought you were talking about stroke widths scaling independently of the overall transform (e.g., for maintaining a 1px border at any size). – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:05pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/26 "2009-01-10T12:05:32Z")
I am talking about stroke widths scaling independently. What I mean is, if you scale the width independently of the height, would be able to ensure that horizontal stroke width does not scale independently of vertical stroke width. For that to be the case, stroke width would have to be independent of scaling. Right now, an infantry symbol can have whatever proportions the users want and the stroke width is independent of that. - M. 2009/1/10 Joel Uckelman \<[uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net) ([uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net))\> > [@](#): > > Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > > > [@](#): > > > > You wouldn’t want vertical & horizontal line widths to scale differently. > > Huh? I don’t follow. I thought you were talking about stroke widths scaling > independently of the overall transform (e.g., for maintaining a 1px border > at any size). > > – > > J. Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/27 "2009-01-10T12:11:54Z")
Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > [@](#): > > I am talking about stroke widths scaling independently. What I mean is, if > you scale the width independently of the height, would be able to ensure > that horizontal stroke width _does not_ scale independently of vertical > stroke width. For that to be the case, stroke width would have to be > independent of scaling. Right now, an infantry symbol can have whatever > proportions the users want and the stroke width is independent of that. The concept you’re talking about—stroke height—doesn’t exist in SVG. A stroke is a path, and paths only have width. The width of a path is tangentially perpendicular to its direction at each point along the path. Why would you want to change the aspect ratio of an infantry symbol, anyway? – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/28 "2009-01-10T13:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The concept you’re talking about—stroke height—doesn’t exist in SVG. > A stroke is a path, and paths only have width. The width of a path is > tangentially perpendicular to its direction at each point along the path. That’s what I was referring to. I think you answered my question. It’s a question of whether scaling occurs before or after stroking. If scaling occurs after, you’d get very strange effects. > [@](#): > > Why would you want to change the aspect ratio of an infantry symbol, anyway? Different games have different aspect ratios. The way it works now, you can have whatever aspect ratio you want. E.g., according to the NATO document, neutral infantry symbols are square. Of course, enemy units are diamonds… - M. Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/29 "2009-01-10T13:44:18Z")
Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > [@](#): > > E.g., according to the NATO document, neutral infantry symbols are square. > Of course, enemy units are diamonds… Most likely only the friendly symbols are ever going to be used, as you probably want the symbols to be relative to the units’ owner. – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/30 "2009-01-10T14:41:57Z")
Still, you want to be able to offer different aspect ratios. You know, there’s nothing really wrong with the Java2D approach. Can’t they just produce SVGs instead of PNGs? - M. 2009/1/10 Joel Uckelman \<[uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net) ([uckelman@nomic.net](mailto:uckelman@nomic.net))\> > [@](#): > > Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > > > [@](#): > > > > E.g., according to the NATO document, neutral infantry symbols are square. > > Of course, enemy units are diamonds… > > Most likely only the friendly symbols are ever going to be used, as you > probably want the symbols to be relative to the units’ owner. > > – > J. Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/31 "2009-01-10T14:44:52Z")
Thus spake “Michael Kiefte”: > [@](#): > > Still, you want to be able to offer different aspect ratios. > > You know, there’s nothing really wrong with the Java2D approach. Can’t they > just produce SVGs instead of PNGs? It could, yes, but having a NATO SVG symbols set would also be useful for creating pieces by hand and with scripts, as well as from within VASSAL. – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![bartleby](https://forum.vassalengine.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bartleby](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/bartleby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/32 "2009-01-10T20:21:14Z")
> [@Brent Easton](#): > > Chris, > I suggest you proceed with your original plan and add the few missing symbols you mentioned using Java2D. That’s a wrap then and can be put to bed. > > If you want to go further, then as a new project, I would look at adding a new Symbol type that uses the SVG symbols and/or creating SVG. This will be a major undertaking. Fair enough. I’ll skip some of the more obscure symbols in this format. A full set of GPL symbols would be handy to have, I think, but may be beyond the scope of this specific use. Possible spinoff? Has anyone spoken to the mapsymbs guy about changing his license? ---
**Author:** ![IrishBouzouki](https://forum.vassalengine.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/i/c4cdca/32.png) [@IrishBouzouki](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/IrishBouzouki)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/33 "2009-01-11T21:33:16Z")
> [@mkiefte](#): > > If you use the same font, the results will be identical In an ideal world. I can state positively that in the context of this EXACT issue I have that NOT to be the case. I did a whole thread asking Joel for help because my text labels set up as rendered on a Windows machine came out all messed up on a linux machine - same module, same font. That turned out to be an oddity with a particular charset on ubuntu on openjdk (all three of those required to produce it), and it was a difference in the way the font was located relative to its anchor not in appearance per se. But… as much as I would like it to be so… I think it is not a safe assumption to believe that all fonts will render identically between different OS’s or even JRE versions or even charsets within a JRE version. Me, I would like to see more font capability though. Right now if I recall you are restricted to about three or four selections for a text label. I would like to be able to do things like have Greek alphabet lettering on my Macedonian army etc. Without having to endure the pain of building it offline graphically, which I know is the favored approach right now. But lets not get off track here. ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/34 "2009-01-11T22:21:11Z")
Thus spake “IrishBouzouki”: > [@](#): > > mkiefte wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > If you use the same font, the results will be identical > > In an ideal world. I can state positively that in the context of this EXACT i > ssue I have that NOT to be the case. I did a whole thread asking Joel for hel > p because my text labels set up as rendered on a Windows machine came out all > messed up on a linux machine - same module, same font. That turned out to be > an oddity with a particular charset on ubuntu on openjdk (all three of those > required to produce it), and it was a difference in the way the font was loc > ated relative to its anchor not in appearance per se. > But… as much as I would like it to be so… I think it is not a safe assump > tion to believe that all fonts will render identically between different OS’s > or even JRE versions or even charsets within a JRE version. The issue you’re referring to is due to a bug. If we’re going to consider bugs when comparing rendering, then we can’t provide you with any guarantees that images will render the same on different platforms, either—Brent’s computer is an example of that, since images don’t render to screen properly for him when using Direct3D. In the absence of that particular bug, you should see the same fonts rendering the same way on differnet platforms. – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![Brent\_Easton](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/brent_easton/32/10_2.png) [@Brent\_Easton](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/Brent_Easton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/35 "2009-01-11T22:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > In the absence of that particular bug, you should see the same fonts > rendering the same way on differnet platforms. Early testing of Game Piece Images indicated this just doesn’t happen unless the font is transferred with the module. Java defines 5 ‘standard’ fonts that are available on all systems. These fonts render differently on different systems. B. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/uckelman/32/10020_2.png) [@uckelman](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/uckelman)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/36 "2009-01-11T22:27:45Z")
Thus spake “Brent Easton”: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In the absence of that particular bug, you should see the same fonts > > rendering the same way on differnet platforms. > > Early testing of Game Piece Images indicated this just doesn’t happen unless > the font is transferred with the module. Java defines 5 ‘standard’ fonts that > are available on all systems. These fonts render differently on different sy > stems. What I’m talking about is in the context of using the same font—as in, bitwise identical—on different platforms. One way to do that is to ship the font inside the module. – J. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![Brent\_Easton](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/brent_easton/32/10_2.png) [@Brent\_Easton](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/Brent_Easton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/37 "2009-01-11T22:38:02Z")
> [@](#): > > What I’m talking about is in the context of using the same font—as in, > bitwise identical—on different platforms. One way to do that is to ship > the font inside the module. Yes, that will be the only way. Which will be painful respect of GamePieceImages as you have the option to use any fonts installed on your system. Any fonts you choose to use will have to be located and copied into the module. B. * * * Messages mailing list [Messages@forums.vassalengine.org](mailto:Messages@forums.vassalengine.org) [forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/ … engine.org](http://forums.vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages_forums.vassalengine.org) Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_M](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/tim_m/32/2_2.png) [@Tim\_M](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/Tim_M)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/38 "2009-01-11T22:39:40Z")
I think we went over this somewhere before 🙂 Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/39 "2009-01-11T23:21:24Z")
2009/1/11 Brent Easton \ > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In the absence of that particular bug, you should see the same fonts > > rendering the same way on differnet platforms. > > Early testing of Game Piece Images indicated this just doesn’t happen unless the font is transferred with the module. Java defines 5 ‘standard’ fonts that are available on all systems. These fonts render differently on different systems. That’s because they’re actually different fonts. Java defines 5 generic names along the lines of “Serif”, “Sans”, or whatever. What they really come out as could be anything – including something else entirely. The ADC2 importer technically relies on the presence of several fonts which are not present on Linux so you’re maps are never going to be exactly the same under VASSAL as ADC2 (they’re not anyway–they’re better). There’s actually not that many “safe” fonts. I can’t think of one that’s guaranteed to be on all platforms. However, you can freely download what Microsoft calls core web fonts, although, technically, they’re iffy too, and you can’t legally get away with packaging them with a module either. - M. Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) ---
**Author:** ![mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/user_avatar/forum.vassalengine.org/mkiefte/32/25_2.png) [@mkiefte](https://forum.vassalengine.org/u/mkiefte)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449/40 "2009-01-11T23:23:45Z")
> [@](#): > > The issue you’re referring to is due to a bug. If we’re going to consider > bugs when comparing rendering, then we can’t provide you with any guarantees > that images will render the same on different platforms, either—Brent’s > computer is an example of that, since images don’t render to screen properly > for him when using Direct3D. All bets are off with OpenGL. I think there are some constraints, but I don’t think there are any places were you’re guaranteed a pixel-by-pixel identity across video cards. Your recent experience with JOGL is an extreme example! But it’s close enough (except for you, Joel). - M. Post generated using Mail2Forum ([mail2forum.com](http://www.mail2forum.com)) [Previous page](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/expanded-nato-symbol-options/1449.md?page=3)