Marker sinks to bottom of stack

Technical Support & Bugs
1

Markers such as ktx marker sinks to bottom of stack. problem just recently started happening. this is an ongoing game and for 299 previous file versions it didn’t happen. Now when I place a marker it happens, Note it doesn’t happen when I place a unit counter, just a marker counter.

2
  • Which version of Vassal is the first where the problem occurs?
  • Which module exhibits the problem?
3

It began with v3.7.22. It also happens with v3.7.23

The Third Winter v1.14 or v1.16.1

4

  • For clarity, you’ve verified that the problem does not happen with 3.7.21?

  • Would you give exact steps for reproducing the problem?

5

I reloaded 3.7.20 and the problem happens, but when 3.7.20 was the current version, the problem wasn’t happening. It happens with markers that were added to the game. It happens on earlier game files now but didn’t at the time they were the current file. It doesn’t happen with other game modules, just The Third Winter. I don’t think it’s the Vassal engine. I think it is something specific with something I did when updating the game.

My phone number is 815-291-5592 if that would be easier to troubleshoot.

6

What do you mean by “markers that were added to the game”?

Again, please give exact steps for reproducing the problem. (I’m not volunteering to troubleshoot myself, but anyone who is will need this information.)

7

For me, there’s just not enough information to go on. I can’t reproduce the issue with the current version of this module. I tried a couple different predefined setups and just dragged some of these KTX (?) markers onto stacks and they always stayed at the top of the stack.

I think a minimum amount of information to proceed would be the knowledge of what module version was in use when the game was started, and preferably an actual game file (.vlog or .vsav) to look at.

8

What I mean by “markers added to the game”:

By “markers,” I mean counters (such as the KTX/“X” counter, but also other marker types) that I select fresh from the drop-down menu/piece palette and place onto the map for the first time—as distinct from markers already on the map from earlier in the game session.

Module/scenario details:

OCS - The Third Winter, v1.16.1 (OCS 4-19, 12-25 updates), Scenario 1: The Dnepr Battles (26 Sept 1943 Campaign Start)

Reproduction steps:

  1. Open the above scenario in The Third Winter v1.16.1

  2. From the piece palette drop-down menu, select a new marker (e.g., a KTX/“X” counter)

  3. Place it onto an existing stack on the map

  4. Result: the new marker lands at the bottom of the stack, underneath the other pieces, instead of on top as expected

What works correctly (for comparison):

  • A marker already on the map, when moved to a different stack, lands on top as expected—does not sink to the bottom

  • Existing unit counters also land on top as expected when moved to a new stack

  • A newly-placed marker that has sunk to the bottom can be manually moved back to the top using the normal stack reorder controls—so it’s recoverable, but requires an extra manual step every time

Additional note: This isn’t limited to KTX markers—I tested 5 other marker types from the palette and observed the same sinking behavior with all of them.

9

One additional note. This file is from an ongoing Vassal email game. It is file 0299 December 19, 1943 Soviet Movement Phase. We’ve been playing since 2021 and have updated Vassal with each release. The 0299 indicates this is the 299th file in the game.

10

From your description, it sounds like you have a long running game, and when you load the current .vsav you get the unexpected behaviour.

The problem may be, that there’s an inconistency between the piece definitions in the used .vmod and the piece definitions in the used .vsav - whether directly or via a Prototypes.

Perhaps, try loading the .vsav and then run the Refresh Counters tools, save the game again, and then reopen with that new save.

It sounds as if the module now puts markers on a [Game Piece Layer(VASSAL Reference Manual), while the old definition - the one in the .vsav file - doesn’t. Or maybe, the old definition does, but the new one puts the markers on the same layer as other pieces.

Perhaps try to take an older version of the module - say 1.15.0 - and see if the problem is there.

If none of the above solves the problem, then consider to post your .vsav to make it easier to debug for others.

Yours,
Christian

11

Hi Christian,

I had not tried refreshing the counters. When I tried it with the default settings every Axis stack on the map with masked counters changed the order of stacking. Instead of the unmasked counter being the top unit, all unmasked counters sank to the bottom of the stack.

Is there a way to upload the file to the forum so someone can look at it?

For now the workaround is to clone existing markers that don’t sink to the bottom of the stack.

Regards,

Roy

12

Hi Christian,

I replied to you on the forum. I’ve also attached two files: the one before using the refresh tool and the one after.

Respectfully,

Roy

(Attachment 0299 refresh.vsav is missing)

(Attachment 0299 December 19 Soviet Refit Segment.vsav is missing)

13

No. You’ll need to upload the files somewhere else and provide a link.

14

I uploaded the files to my DropBox account:

15

Among the reasons you want to determine what module version was in use when you started this game back in 2021 is that it has undergone quite a bit of editing in the meantime.

For example, among the notes for version 1.10 (posted approximately 3 years ago) is:

Corrected Combat Markers bug, so that they always display on top of counter stacks.

16

We Stayed with v1.08 because we had the same problem with v1.09 using Vassal 3.6.5. Here is the text of the report to Jeff Coyle:

Hope you’re well. Roy Lane and I are playing an ambitious campaign game of TTW. Recently we ran into trouble with the module. Perhaps you can advise. When we started the game a while back we were both using VASSAL 3.6.5 and TTW module version 1.08. A short time into our game Roy upgraded to 1.09. I stayed with 1.08. No problems. A few weeks ago Roy updated his VASSAL to 3.6.19 and the TTW module to the latest version, 1.11. We’re about 12 turns into the game. I followed and updated to the latest versions too. When I began my current turn with the new modules I rolled for supply (German). When I tried to put the new supply on top of various cities and airbases the supply immediately sank to the bottom of the stack. And vanished. Every hex. Expand the stack and it wasn’t there. When I clicked and moved the whole stack elsewhere, there was the new supply in the original hex. But I could never get it to incorporate into the stack. It always disappeared. Older supply [presumably put there using TTW version 1.08 and VASSAL 3.65], still in the hex, displayed just fine.

Herman Wu responded 6-27-2023:

This is very strange…this seems like a new bug in Vassal itself, not the module.

Basically, something very screwy is going on with the Counter Refresh function acting on units that are Masked.

I see that this vsav file was started with an earlier version of Vassal that predated the establishment of unit Submenus.

I started experimenting with my old Scorpions in a Bottle vsav file from 2021 and was able to replicate these issues.

So the problem you’re seeing with the SP counters is just the tip of the iceberg.

When I hit Counter Refresh (does not matter what box options I’m checking), units that are currently Masked are somehow morphed into another Game Piece Layer (akin to the new Combat Markers vs regular pieces: the last listed property under the Main Map node), so that even though they occupy the same hex, they are ‘floating’ to the top and not behaving as part of the same stack. They need to be physically moved away before one can actually select the unMasked pieces that have now sunk to the bottom.

The only way I can see to mitigate this issue is to Retire then log in as a Solo player, so that no pieces are actually Masked when you hit Counter Refresh. This minimizes but does not eliminate the problem; the lettered gray Supply Dumps are still Masked for some reason and are thus still afflicted, while the side effect is that all Masking from the Step Loss counters have disappeared en masse after Counter Refresh.

Maybe Jeff can shed more insight into this issue, then send an SOS to the Vassal gurus. In the meantime, I would suggest you backtrack from Vassal 3.6.19 to previous 3.6.18 and see if the problem still persists between Counter Refresh and unit Masking. Hopefully 3.6.18 would be ok, because I have not seen this issue reported on Vassal technical support forums…yet

Jeff responded to stay with v1.08 which we did until recently updating to v1.14 then 1.16.

Roy

17

I’d say the response you got shows evidence of a few misunderstandings of how VASSAL works.

Updating your VASSAL software over the course of a game should be fine. Updating your module version during the course of a game can easily cause all sorts of things to go sideways, even if you try taking advantage of Counter Refresh along the way.

Some module changes are more substantive than others, and refreshing counters is not a tool that can “update” a game file to incorporate anything and everything that’s new. In this case, version 1.10 of this module appears to have introduced Game Piece Layers to the game map for the first time (no evidence of that feature being used in module versions 1.09 and 1.08 that I looked at).

I’m pretty skeptical that versions of VASSAL itself have anything to do with the problems. Rather, I think it’s the habit of updating the module you’re using along the way. Even in the best of times I think this is a practice to be discouraged unless you have specific knowledge that module changes are relatively minor and can be accommodated with a counter refresh. When changes get more wide-ranging and start to involve other features and functionality beyond just game pieces, I wouldn’t have any expectation of it working without problems–if it does, it would be more happenstance than by design.

18

Thank you for the response, Joel. Going forward we will only update Vassal and leave the game module with the version we started with. I’ve been using Vassal for a number of years and didn’t know that it wasn’t good practice to update the game module. So noted now.

Regards,

Roy