Anyone know of VASSAL module for this or development? I own the game but would love to be able to play it via VASSAL PBEM
Andy,
L2 Design Group has decreed that they do not allow VASSAL mods as they support Aide de Camp. This is why the Blood and Steel module was removed as their request. So I’m guessing that no one is going to put out the insane effort to make a mod of a true monster game like SoS to see it get squashed by the publisher. Damn shame too.
-james
Doesn’t the new vassal beta convert from ADC to VASSAL?
Yes, ADC2 modules can be converted to VASSAL. It’s just that the VASSAL module cannot be posted. IF you have the ADC2 SoS modules, then you can convert it to VASSAL by using the VASSAL Beta. Just make sure that you have first updated your ADC2 module with the patch.
[/quote]
Is this still the case? L2 Design already dropped their support for ADC , and moved onto VASSAL.
On what are you basing this belief?
If you believe that is correct, then ask L2DG or post without approval from L2DG and see. I believe that L2DG still wishes to maintain control over its products.
L2DG still sells modules of its games in ADC2. If you post or distribute without approval, you risk more than just loss of your use; you risk loss of VASSAL support by L2DG.
There is no risk in converting an ADC2 module that you own to VASSAL and there is no risk in an opponent converting an ADC2 module that he owns to VASSAL. You can then play without affronting L2DG.
Firstly let me say that I made a question, not a statement, so your tone of offence is uncalled for. You also ask on what am I basing my belief that L2Design moved from ADC to VASSAL? Well, on the words of Art Lupinacci himself, and I quote his answer in a reply as to why he was against VASSAL:
First, my post had no tone and no offense. I am sorry if you took it that way.
You asked one question and made two statements.
Art Luppinacci did not state that it was all right to post VASSAL modules of L2DG products. He said that he is not anti-VASSAL and that most likely all future modules will be in VASSAL.
By your original question, you seemed to be asking if it was all right to post existing modules in VASSAL; specifically SOS.
I wrote that you should seek L2DGs approval before you do.
I also wrote that if you have the ADC2 module, you can convert it to VASSAL – you just cannot distribute or post it for distibution without L2DGs approval.
If you do post or distribute L2DGs modules without first getting approval, you risk antagonizing L2DG to the point of withdrawing any support for VASSAL.
These are facts. They are not meant to offend you.
I’ll ask L2DG if it is all right to post on their ConsimWorld forum page.
Here is Art Lupinacci’s, L2DG, reply:
"Our modules continue to be “PURCHASE IT”. It is not FREEWARE or SHAREWARE.
If you own it, you can convert it to VASSAL for personal use. If you don’t own it, you have to purchase it.
So, any free distribution is verboten. Nothing has changed on that front."
I hope that settles the question.
SoS in ADC2 is available for purchase from L2DG. If you buy it, then you can convert it to VASSAL. But you cannot post for distribution or distribute it yourself. Is that clear.
No offense intended.
It’s what happens when money is more important than gaming.
Lets say Streets of Stalingrad has sold 1000 copies. I wonder how many customers ever get to play it due to constraints on space, time and opponents. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were only 10%. A game company that wants its games played understands the importance of easy online play. I don’t buy L2 games because I know I’ll have to jump through hoops to play them.
Against online play: L2 Design
Supports online play: everyone else
Hey, it costs money to make and publish a game. Is it then unfair to expect the publisher make money from the game?
L2DG is not against on-line play and not against VASSAL. L2DG does ask you to purchase its module for use in on-line play. I don’t think that is unfair.
And, I don’t think that “everyone else” supports on-line play in the form of VASSAL. There are several game compaines that have specifically asked that their games not be posted on VASSAL’s module site.
Get real buddy.
Personally I think it’s bad customer relations to sell games that people cannot play without using the badly dated ADC2 or having to convert to Vassal (not a trivial process). But obviously if people are paying then who cares right?
I’ll also add that there is no evidence to suggest people are playing games on Vassal without at least one pplayer owning a copy. To assume people are getting something for free by downloading a module is insinuating wargamers are pirates. A little obnoxious in my view.
I bought Russia Besieged from L2D and then bought the ADC2 module to suit. But I haven’t played the game because ADC2 has a painfully high learning curve, it’s just not worth learning the system for a single game. Then if I jump that hurdle I’ve got to find an opponent who a) Wants to play RB b) knows ADC2.
So here I am with a white elephant, out of pocket, but apparently that’s business.
On Mon, August 18, 2008 5:10 am, Charles McLellan wrote:
By selling you the game, no. By selling you the game twice, yes.
So, if I buy the physical game, I can play it across the table with
another player. I could play it by both of us setting up a copy and
sending the moves backwards and forwards by postal mail. Ditto by email,
or by telephone. We could take picture of the board, record commentary of
what each of us had done and email those backwards and forwards. All of
these things I could do with the copy of the game that I’d already paid
for.
But as soon as I want to use a computer to help out, I have to pay the
company again for their tool to do so, and I (or some other kind soul)
am forbidden from making our own tools, even if everyone involved has also
already paid for the game.
Yes, I think that’s extremely unfair.
The only other prominent one I can call to mind is Games Workshop, who,
while I enjoy some of their games, are fairly infamous for being draconian
about the use of “their IP” in any context. (Being the 800lb gorilla of
table-top gaming helps re-inforce this mindset.) It doesn’t exactly buy
them customer good-will.
Regards,
Tim.
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On Mon, August 18, 2008 8:13 am, bsmith wrote:
Exactly. I’ve bought games that I know I will play face-to-face maybe
once or twice in my life, if I’m lucky, knowing that I will be able to
play them via VASSAL (or in desperation, Cyberboard).
That’s sales those companies would absolutely have lost by providing
paid-for on-line support only in a format I can’t use, and blocking
community efforts.
Regards,
Tim.
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Thus spake “bsmith”:
It’s not fair to other game companies to lump Avalanche Press with them.
Avalanche Press doesn’t want people play their games, either.
–
J.
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Thus spake “Charles McLellan”:
No, but then they should make money from selling the game. That’s not
what this discussion is about.
–
J.
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For bsmith,
I don’t know how to make quotes in this forum; so this may take a little time.
“Personally I think it’s bad customer relations to sell games that people cannot play without using the badly dated ADC2 or having to convert to Vassal (not a trivial process).”
Art Lupinacci has indicated that future L2DG games will be available in VASSAL. He hasn’t indicated just how this will be done, but it is quite possible that the modules will not be free. Is it the “cost” that is your concern, or is it “ADC2”?
I certainly cannot argue about the lack of development of ADC2, I totally agree that it is dated. But, converting as ADC2 game to VASSAL is a simple process that I’ve done. I cannot even play a game using VASSAL, but I can convert an ADC2 module to VASSAL. The conversion process is very simple, but unfortunately there is no documentation that I know of to support it. Of course, you must have the ADC2 module to convert; isn’t that your the real concern?
“I’ll also add that there is no evidence to suggest people are playing games on Vassal without at least one pplayer owning a copy. To assume people are getting something for free by downloading a module is insinuating wargamers are pirates. A little obnoxious in my view.”
I think that Art Lupinacci’s argument for not permitting unrestricted distribution of his copyrighted products centers on control of artistic properties; not piracy.
Nevertheless, downloading someone else’s work without permission is defined as a form of piracy; not all wargamers do it, but it is done by many.
I think that examples exist regarding Art’s concern. On the VASSAL module site, Bill Thomson has L2DG’s TRC4 posted but hidden under the “Wargame Academy Vassal Team Dropbox” title. The quality of the posted material is somewhat less than that of the original game. I suspect that the reason that it is hidden is because L2DG requested that it be removed from free VASSAL distribution. Also, earlier in this forum someone mentioned that L2DG asked that their “Blood and Steel” game be removed after someone posted without permission. I think that there is reason to distrust VASSAL posters because of this.
When someone copies and distributes your work, it reduces your incentive to do further work. That is why copyright laws exist. The artistic work efforts of people are protected by these copyright laws. To post without permission is a violation of these laws. Copyright laws are not L2DG laws; they are not ADC2 laws; they are international laws. If your concern is with the law, go to congressional representatives; don’t complain to L2DG or ADC2.
"I bought Russia Besieged from L2D and then bought the ADC2 module to suit. But I haven’t played the game because ADC2 has a painfully high learning curve, it’s just not worth learning the system for a single game. Then if I jump that hurdle I’ve got to find an opponent who a) Wants to play RB b) knows ADC2.
“So here I am with a white elephant, out of pocket, but apparently that’s business.”
ADC2 is the only system that I have been able to use because it is so simple. VASSAL is much too difficult for me to understand and use. I tied but gave up. There is a simple document distributed with the RB module that explains how to play a game using ADC2. You don’t need to read the whole thing, just look at the pictures. There is also a single page instruction for those that are familiar with computers. ADC2 is clearly the simplest game playing system available; outdate though it may be.
Now if you have the ADC2 module for RB, why not convert it to VASSAL? Then you can play someone else who also had the ADC2 module and knows how to use VASSAL. It may be white, but hardly an elephant. So, now your hurdles are a) Wants to play RB b) has the ADC2 module c) knows how to use VASSAL. By the way, I believe that Art Lupinacci is sponsoring an RB tournament, so hurdle one is solved – join the tournament.
Thus spake “Charles McLellan”:
Would you be willing to detail for us what you found difficult or confusing,
possibly in a different thread? People keep telling us this but hardly ever
seem willing to explain what they mean. We can’t improve if we don’t get such
feedback.
–
J.
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Art Lupinacci of L2 Design actually paid someone to develop the ADC2 module for RB (and every other game for which he has an ADC2 module). By selling the ADC2 module, he’s effectively recouping the cost. I happen to know how much was paid, and I have a rough idea of how many have been sold. I don’t honestly see how he can have possibly recovered that cost. That fact has left an impression, to be sure. However, Art is moving towards VASSAL and there will be releases of VASSAL modules in the future from L2DG.
Keep in mind, the primary goal of most of these companies to develop physical games that are both attractive and fun to play. Computer modules are often an afterthought. I’m not defending that – that’s just the way it is.
Far from being a white elephant, RB is a great game. I’ve played it several times and it’s the best East Front game I have. If you own the ADC2 module, you can play it on VASSAL. If there’s something about playing it under VASSAL that seems clunky or difficult to use, I want to know about it. I’ve been working closely with Charles M. on various things about the import command. It will never be perfect but right now, the goal is for it to be usable for a large number of games. The ADC2 modules from L2DG are perfect examples of exactly those modules that I want to see perform well under VASSAL – they’re relatively recent, they’re high-quality, and, importantly, they’re commercial, which means that I would like you to be able to legally run those modules that you have purchased under VASSAL without violating copyright.
- M.
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